Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

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Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Milan655 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:51 am

'McLaren technical director Paddy Lowe is convinced the introduction of a cockpit cover could come as early as 2014.

“I think something is inevitable because it is the one big safety exposure that we have got,” said Lowe, who is part of a technical working group currently exploring the best method to protect drivers’ heads.

Fighter jet-style canopies are understood to have been rejected and work is now focusing on a forward roll-hoop design in an attempt to preclude the kind of accident suffered by Ferrari’s Felipe Massa, who was knocked unconscious and left with a fractured skull when hit by flying debris at the Hungarian Grand Prix in 2009.'


Mad
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Vincent Giacalone on Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:53 am

If this ends up saving lives, I won't complain.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Blake Camphausen on Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:57 am

Nascarboy426 wrote:If this ends up saving lives, I won't complain.
This.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by BWardboy88 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:15 pm

You know even though there was no injury in that crash, I still think this idea to close the cockpits up is rather weird in my opinion. I mean it might help save lives, but it might just make the cars look silly and become unpopular with the fans.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by JMac525 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:20 pm

Even though I don't follow F1 that closely, I think this is a good idea.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Milan655 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:21 pm

They are essentially roll cages surrounding the drivers head. Safety is fine, but I don't think it's necessary and it will really look stupid.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by BWardboy88 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:24 pm

Milan655 wrote:They are essentially roll cages surrounding the drivers head. Safety is fine, but I don't think it's necessary and it will really look stupid.

yeah, I hope accidents like that don't happen again, then maybe we won't have to deal with stupid F1 car designs.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Blake Camphausen on Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:14 pm

Milan655 wrote:They are essentially roll cages surrounding the drivers head. Safety is fine, but I don't think it's necessary and it will really look stupid.
Why haven't people learned that the "Our current safety is fine." Approach doesn't work. You keep saying it, and keep saying it, and keep saying it, then boom, Aryton Senna is dead. Or Dale Earnhardt Sr. Or Dan Wheldon. Constantly improving safety and saving lives is alot better then improving it alot at once, and then not improving it for 10-20 years, until something else tragic happens.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by PYLrulz on Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:10 pm

Milan655 wrote:They are essentially roll cages surrounding the drivers head. Safety is fine, but I don't think it's necessary and it will really look stupid.

I'll tell you what looks more stupid. Something entering the cockpit, and hurting or killing a driver.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Magus978 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:36 pm

Better safe and silly-looking than sorry and injured/worse.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Milan655 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:42 pm

Blake Camphausen wrote:
Milan655 wrote:They are essentially roll cages surrounding the drivers head. Safety is fine, but I don't think it's necessary and it will really look stupid.
Why haven't people learned that the "Our current safety is fine." Approach doesn't work. You keep saying it, and keep saying it, and keep saying it, then boom, Aryton Senna is dead. Or Dale Earnhardt Sr. Or Dan Wheldon. Constantly improving safety and saving lives is alot better then improving it alot at once, and then not improving it for 10-20 years, until something else tragic happens.

I didn't say that it wasn't helpful, and I'd be fine with it, but I wouldn't call a car entering a cockpit as a major threat currently. Cars rarely are launched into the air and, with the new implementation of the stepped nose, it is less possible (but not impossible) for a car to strike the drives head in a side on collision. I would think the main concern in Formula 1 are the removal of wheels during an incident, or where a team secures a wheel falsely. Both of these were seen during the Belgian Grand Prix: the first corner incident saw Romain Grosjean's rear wheel fall off; the second was during the Karthikeyan incident where the right rear tyre was sent flying due to the impact with the wall (the impact was on the left side of the car). As I said, I would be fine with the implementation of the roll cage, as it was tested (http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2012/4/13288.html) earlier this year that the tyre would be deflected in the case of a loose wheel. However, this still does not protect marshalls-debris has caused the past 2 fatalities in Formula 1 (in 2000 Italian GP and 2001 Australian GP).
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Sparkz47 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:44 pm

As long as it doesn't detect from the racing (which it most likely won't, seeing as how the cage would have no connection to the car's moving parts), I'm in full support of this. If Grosjean's car had been a foot further to it's left in that crash at Belgium, Fernando Alonso would be dead. Grojean's car flew right over the front of Alonso's car and could have very well crushed his head.

No matter how stupid they look, I can only see this being a good thing for F1. At least they're not trying to restrict everything and set ridiculous regulations to hinder the racing like NASCAR.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by RyanB06 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:43 pm

I don't understand why the FIA is waiting until 2014 to implement this. If they're that serious about safety, why not do it next season?
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by PYLrulz on Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:44 pm

Milan655 wrote:
Blake Camphausen wrote:
Milan655 wrote:They are essentially roll cages surrounding the drivers head. Safety is fine, but I don't think it's necessary and it will really look stupid.
Why haven't people learned that the "Our current safety is fine." Approach doesn't work. You keep saying it, and keep saying it, and keep saying it, then boom, Aryton Senna is dead. Or Dale Earnhardt Sr. Or Dan Wheldon. Constantly improving safety and saving lives is alot better then improving it alot at once, and then not improving it for 10-20 years, until something else tragic happens.

I didn't say that it wasn't helpful, and I'd be fine with it, but I wouldn't call a car entering a cockpit as a major threat currently. Cars rarely are launched into the air and, with the new implementation of the stepped nose, it is less possible (but not impossible) for a car to strike the drives head in a side on collision. I would think the main concern in Formula 1 are the removal of wheels during an incident, or where a team secures a wheel falsely. Both of these were seen during the Belgian Grand Prix: the first corner incident saw Romain Grosjean's rear wheel fall off; the second was during the Karthikeyan incident where the right rear tyre was sent flying due to the impact with the wall (the impact was on the left side of the car). As I said, I would be fine with the implementation of the roll cage, as it was tested (http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2012/4/13288.html) earlier this year that the tyre would be deflected in the case of a loose wheel. However, this still does not protect marshalls-debris has caused the past 2 fatalities in Formula 1 (in 2000 Italian GP and 2001 Australian GP).

Just because a car hasn't flown into a cockpit doesn't mean it can't happen. Like Sparkz says, if Grosjean is a bit more to the left, we are RIPing Alonso.

And Ryan, probably the reason is to work on anything, that way, they just are not slapping something on the car without making absolute sure it will work
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Spannerhead29 (Nelson) on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:08 pm

I've never like the idea of an enclosed cockpit, main reason, fire within the cockpit.
For example; Roger Williamson's fatal accident, his chances of surviving that accident were low in the first place, if you added an enclosed cockpit, the chances become a hell of a lot lower.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Cynon on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:50 pm

I think the FIA did studies with closed cockpits and it didn't work as well as placing bars in front of the cockpit.

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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Mystrsyko on Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:18 pm

Spannerhead29 (Nelson) wrote:I've never like the idea of an enclosed cockpit, main reason, fire within the cockpit.
For example; Roger Williamson's fatal accident, his chances of surviving that accident were low in the first place, if you added an enclosed cockpit, the chances become a hell of a lot lower.
I am going to have to disagree with this for one main reason. Drag racing has roll bars over the cockpits of funny cars and top fuel cars (in much the same way they could be installed in F1), and I don't recall any of the drivers having a difficult time getting out during a fire
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Racerfan275 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:21 pm

Hmmm, interesting. Wonder how this will go.

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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by nepatsfan02 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:09 am

This ruined my day Fail
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Milan655 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:05 am

Mystrsyko wrote:
Spannerhead29 (Nelson) wrote:I've never like the idea of an enclosed cockpit, main reason, fire within the cockpit.
For example; Roger Williamson's fatal accident, his chances of surviving that accident were low in the first place, if you added an enclosed cockpit, the chances become a hell of a lot lower.
I am going to have to disagree with this for one main reason. Drag racing has roll bars over the cockpits of funny cars and top fuel cars (in much the same way they could be installed in F1), and I don't recall any of the drivers having a difficult time getting out during a fire

The aim was to stop debris from cars hitting a driver, i.e. Felipe Massa's accident. If you have only a roll bar, it doesn't protect you much from a suspension piece or other hitting your helmet. Albeit, the FIA have released new helmets for open car racing where a carbon fibre strap is placed at the top of the visor, however the driver is still endangered within the space bellow it. Additionally, what if the roll bar failed? What if a tyre or car crumpled the roll bar? If a car can enter a cockpit, then why can't the roll bar bend? They can say that it works, and it probably would work mostly, but there are these problems (of course, the crumpling of the roll bar could be issued with an expansion so to avoid the drivers head in the instance of it crumpling).
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by BlueThunderfan on Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:35 am

what's with the negiativity? i think it could make the cars look more futuristic! and well, it will have another safety issiue fixed!
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by f1fan12 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:43 am

Won't be long for Indycar if this goes through...
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by bartman97 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:52 am

Milan655 wrote:
Mystrsyko wrote:
Spannerhead29 (Nelson) wrote:I've never like the idea of an enclosed cockpit, main reason, fire within the cockpit.
For example; Roger Williamson's fatal accident, his chances of surviving that accident were low in the first place, if you added an enclosed cockpit, the chances become a hell of a lot lower.
I am going to have to disagree with this for one main reason. Drag racing has roll bars over the cockpits of funny cars and top fuel cars (in much the same way they could be installed in F1), and I don't recall any of the drivers having a difficult time getting out during a fire

The aim was to stop debris from cars hitting a driver, i.e. Felipe Massa's accident. If you have only a roll bar, it doesn't protect you much from a suspension piece or other hitting your helmet. Albeit, the FIA have released new helmets for open car racing where a carbon fibre strap is placed at the top of the visor, however the driver is still endangered within the space bellow it. Additionally, what if the roll bar failed? What if a tyre or car crumpled the roll bar? If a car can enter a cockpit, then why can't the roll bar bend? They can say that it works, and it probably would work mostly, but there are these problems (of course, the crumpling of the roll bar could be issued with an expansion so to avoid the drivers head in the instance of it crumpling).

Lots of crash tests and other things related to them are 100% going to be tested, so until them go through, we won't know about how strong the car is or anything like that. To be honest the car I think will look weird with a roof on it, I'll imagine them looking like solar car cockpits lol. But if it saves lives, then go for it.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Milan655 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:15 am

BlueThunderfan wrote:what's with the negiativity? i think it could make the cars look more futuristic! and well, it will have another safety issiue fixed!

I'm sorry, but do you want this:



or this:



Futuristic is not good, historical is good Smile
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by RetrogradeRenegade on Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:19 am

Milan655 wrote:
BlueThunderfan wrote:what's with the negiativity? i think it could make the cars look more futuristic! and well, it will have another safety issiue fixed!

I'm sorry, but do you want this:



or this:



Futuristic is not good, historical is good Smile

I'll take the top one. Less chances for a driver to be seriously injured or killed, plus it looks badass as hell. Frankly, I think older F1 cars are overrated in terms of looks, they mostly don't start looking awesome until the mid-80s. Because I think we can all agree that the Jordan 191 blows that 312T out of the water in terms of looks.

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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Spannerhead29 (Nelson) on Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:55 am

Milan655 wrote:
BlueThunderfan wrote:what's with the negiativity? i think it could make the cars look more futuristic! and well, it will have another safety issiue fixed!

I'm sorry, but do you want this:



or this:



Futuristic is not good, historical is good Smile
Wait, the Red Bull X1 was made in real life?
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Milan655 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:58 am

http://www.motorward.com/2010/11/red-bull-x1-model-built-by-idc/

Smile
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Spannerhead29 (Nelson) on Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:23 am

Milan655 wrote:http://www.motorward.com/2010/11/red-bull-x1-model-built-by-idc/

Smile
Dude, that is so awesome, shame it can't race in real life, not because it can't fit in a racing series, or because it's massively expensive, but because the car will try to kill you in the corners.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Metro 6r4 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:12 pm

I remember (and I still have the footage somewhere) a scary accident where a leading wedge-nosed 750-formula car was turned by the second place car and he drove quite literally over the leader's head and rolled twice. everyone was luckily ok but it leads me to wonder whether other single seater series (not necessarily top teir formula's) will follow on to this idea.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by BWardboy88 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:21 pm

Metro 6r4 wrote:I remember (and I still have the footage somewhere) a scary accident where a leading wedge-nosed 750-formula car was turned by the second place car and he drove quite literally over the leader's head and rolled twice. everyone was luckily ok but it leads me to wonder whether other single seater series (not necessarily top teir formula's) will follow on to this idea.

Thats something I've been thinking about in the past few days, with other series that may consider following F1 up to the New Head Protection System which I still feel against for two reasons I may have already mentioned:

1. No matter what the FIA does if they do put it in F1 or not, it will still never be a more safer Sport than it currently is.
2. The cars will just look silly and become annoying and popular to the fans.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Vincent Giacalone on Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:16 pm

Milan655 wrote:
BlueThunderfan wrote:what's with the negiativity? i think it could make the cars look more futuristic! and well, it will have another safety issiue fixed!

I'm sorry, but do you want this:



or this:



Futuristic is not good, historical is good Smile

Agreed, but only to a certain extent. Sure, it'd look cool if, say, NASCAR went back to actual factory stock cars, but the drivers would be at MUCH more risk.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Sparkz47 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:50 pm

Milan655 wrote:
Mystrsyko wrote:
Spannerhead29 (Nelson) wrote:I've never like the idea of an enclosed cockpit, main reason, fire within the cockpit.
For example; Roger Williamson's fatal accident, his chances of surviving that accident were low in the first place, if you added an enclosed cockpit, the chances become a hell of a lot lower.
I am going to have to disagree with this for one main reason. Drag racing has roll bars over the cockpits of funny cars and top fuel cars (in much the same way they could be installed in F1), and I don't recall any of the drivers having a difficult time getting out during a fire

Additionally, what if the roll bar failed? What if a tyre or car crumpled the roll bar? If a car can enter a cockpit, then why can't the roll bar bend? They can say that it works, and it probably would work mostly, but there are these problems (of course, the crumpling of the roll bar could be issued with an expansion so to avoid the drivers head in the instance of it crumpling).

Roll cages in stock cars could crush and crumple too if another car lands on top of it, but you don't hear people calling for NASCAR to be a convertible-only series, do you?
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by RetrogradeRenegade on Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:21 pm

BWardboy88 wrote:Thats something I've been thinking about in the past few days, with other series that may consider following F1 up to the New Head Protection System which I still feel against for two reasons I may have already mentioned:

1. No matter what the FIA does if they do put it in F1 or not, it will still never be a more safer Sport than it currently is.
2. The cars will just look silly and become annoying and popular to the fans.

1. That's been said plenty of times in the past, and yet we still find ways to improve safety. Would you rather wait for another San Marino 1994?
2. At worst, you'll get used to it. I remember back in 2009 when they introduced the skinny rear wings, everybody complained and said they looked terrible. That's stopped now that we've had a couple years to get used to them. Besides, if the closed cockpits look like something approching this, I don't see the problem

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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by PYLrulz on Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:26 pm



Paint that thing black, and you'll have the Batmobile come to life!
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by BWardboy88 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:57 pm

RetrogradeRenegade wrote:
BWardboy88 wrote:Thats something I've been thinking about in the past few days, with other series that may consider following F1 up to the New Head Protection System which I still feel against for two reasons I may have already mentioned:

1. No matter what the FIA does if they do put it in F1 or not, it will still never be a more safer Sport than it currently is.
2. The cars will just look silly and become annoying and popular to the fans.

1. That's been said plenty of times in the past, and yet we still find ways to improve safety. Would you rather wait for another San Marino 1994?
2. At worst, you'll get used to it. I remember back in 2009 when they introduced the skinny rear wings, everybody complained and said they looked terrible. That's stopped now that we've had a couple years to get used to them. Besides, if the closed cockpits look like something approching this, I don't see the problem


Absolutely not I would never EVER want a repeat of San Marino 1994, yeah I know but tbh I can't really blame the FIA for looking into this safety solution. But here are some notes:

F1 hasn't had a fatality since 1994 and NASCAR since 2001, but the HANS device is what saves lives in NASCAR. In F1 they do have them too, but the Series has had more of its drivers injured in the past 10 years than NASCAR drivers. I mean there are things that are different and the same with F1 and NASCAR, but there are always accidents waiting to happen.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Milan655 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:57 am

http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2012/4/13288.html
and
http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2011/7/12314.html

Roll hoop doesn't seem too bad, actually. It doesn't appear to protect the driver should a car drive over the monocoque, however.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by f1fan12 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:28 am

The question now is, what team will be smart enough to get an aerodynamic advantage by using the roll hoop in there design of the car?
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by BWardboy88 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:01 am

f1fan12 wrote:The question now is, what team will be smart enough to get an aerodynamic advantage by using the roll hoop in there design of the car?

Maybe that could be an option for any teams, some may choose it and some may not.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Milan655 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:04 am

BWardboy88 wrote:
f1fan12 wrote:The question now is, what team will be smart enough to get an aerodynamic advantage by using the roll hoop in there design of the car?

Maybe that could be an option for any teams, some may choose it and some may not.

If it's in the interest of safety, all will be forced to use it.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by BWardboy88 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:08 am

Milan655 wrote:
BWardboy88 wrote:
f1fan12 wrote:The question now is, what team will be smart enough to get an aerodynamic advantage by using the roll hoop in there design of the car?

Maybe that could be an option for any teams, some may choose it and some may not.

If it's in the interest of safety, all will be forced to use it.

I see.
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Re: Enclosed cockpits for 2014 [F1]

Post by Metro 6r4 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:00 pm

f1fan12 wrote:The question now is, what team will be smart enough to get an aerodynamic advantage by using the roll hoop in there design of the car?
Will they sacrifice safety for speed
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