Re: Nelson "Bulls**t" Piquet Jr...

by RetrogradeRenegade Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:37 pm

Cynon wrote:
Milan655 wrote:
Toblerone wrote:F1 is certainly different than the late 80s, early 90s, you never know how he would do.

It doesnt matter. The disrespect he shows from that comment is incredible. Ayrton Senna is THE best driver. Piquet Jr is a wash up that even struggles in 2nd and 3rd tier NASCAR.

Prost was better than Senna.

Clark was better than everyone ever.

End.

Fixed.

by Electric Wolf Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:25 pm

I love how you all are blasting Piquet when what he's saying is completely logical. Senna probably wouldn't have adapted to the newer technology. Driver skill isn't really necessary in NASCAR or F1. The only reason Vettel, Webber and Alonso do so well is their equipment nowadays.

by Metro 6r4 Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:34 pm

He did struggle with the 1994 changes.

by Toblerone Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:36 pm

Casey Lester wrote:I love how you all are blasting Piquet when what he's saying is completely logical. Senna probably wouldn't have adapted to the newer technology. Driver skill isn't really necessary in NASCAR or F1. The only reason Vettel, Webber and Alonso do so well is their equipment nowadays.

I think mostly everybody here is supporting Piquet. And I agree with 100% all of your points.

by Electric Wolf Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:40 pm

Milan655 wrote:
Toblerone wrote:F1 is certainly different than the late 80s, early 90s, you never know how he would do.

It doesnt matter. The disrespect he shows from that comment is incredible. Ayrton Senna is THE best driver. Piquet Jr is a wash up that even struggles in 2nd and 3rd tier NASCAR.

At least he didn't say no talent overall. Senna racing the F1 cars today would be like James Hylton or Darrell Basham or some 70s driver in a COT.

by Milan655 Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:02 pm

Cynon wrote:
Milan655 wrote:
Toblerone wrote:F1 is certainly different than the late 80s, early 90s, you never know how he would do.

It doesnt matter. The disrespect he shows from that comment is incredible. Ayrton Senna is THE best driver. Piquet Jr is a wash up that even struggles in 2nd and 3rd tier NASCAR.

Prost was better than Senna.

Clark was better than both.

Foyt and Mario Andretti were better than Clark.

End.

Prost was never better than Senna. Prost would be a 3 time world champion had he not had the help of Balestre in 1989, and won in 1993 as he had a much more advanced car than anyone in the field.

I won't argue your point on Clark because he definitely is a legend. However I will say Foyt and Andretti were not better than Clark, Senna or Prost. Andretti was a good driver, but not enough to be better than the previously mentioned three. Foyt was solely a CART driver, so it wouldn't be possible to make a comparison. Clark, Senna and Prost are generally conceived by most as the greatest drivers. In fact, Autosport held a poll among Formula 1 drivers to discover the greatest Formula 1 drivers. Senna was 1st, Prost 4th and Clark 5th.

by RetrogradeRenegade Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:20 pm

Milan655 wrote:Prost was never better than Senna. Prost would be a 3 time world champion had he not had the help of Balestre in 1989, and won in 1993 as he had a much more advanced car than anyone in the field.

Prost also could've won the title in 1983 had Renault not decided to ignore him when he said to keep working on the car. Plus, if you say Senna should've won 1989, I say Prost should've won in 1990, simply because it was an incredible effort to haul that Ferrari into championship contention, rather than simply sticking with the best team on the grid (not that I fault Senna for that).

Not only that, but I rate Prost's 1986 title far higher than any of Senna's - Prost had to overcome a car disadvantage throughout the whole season, against 2 very very good drivers. Obviously, Mansell and Piquet's infighting played a part, but he had to be in a position to take advantage of this in the first place. Not to mention how he utterly destroyed Keke Rosberg that year - a man that Senna rated quite highly.

Senna may have had more raw pace than Prost, that is true, but when it came to thinking and planning ahead, Prost was undoubtedly better, something which Peter Dick puts into words far better than I can:

Peter Dick wrote:My favourite Alain Prost story, the one that I feel sums up his tactical genius more than any other, surrounds the Italian GP at Monza in 1988. Prost and Senna are locked in an intense championship battle that is between them alone - a McLaren in-house affair. It is late in the season and they can indulge themselves in the races because there is no 3rd party threat - they will finish 1-2 in the championship no matter what. Prost is following Senna closely in the early stages when Alain realizes that he has an engine problem that will surely prove terminal – realizes with certainty that he will not last the race. Knowing this, and knowing Senna’s ego and his need to prove he’s fastest, Prost decides to drive 11/10th’s and push Senna hard, setting fastest lap after fastest lap. Senna takes the bait, and increases his pace to match Prost and maintain or increase his gap. Prost however, is deliberately driving at such a pace as to put himself the wrong side of his fuel reading, leaving him not enough to finish the race. He is making Senna do the same. Now if Senna had really thought about it, he would have realized that Prost simply does not do things like that, that’s he’s too great a thinker to miscalculate his fuel supply. Senna takes the bait however, thinks only of proving he can match Prost’s challenge, be as fast, stay ahead. Half way through the race, Prost duly drops out with engine failure, and the damage to Senna is done. In the late stages he is so marginal on fuel that he’s had to cut back dramatically, and the Ferraris are now breathing down his neck. Senna feels a desperate need to get by a rookie in traffic at a risky place, they collide, and his race is over. It was a long shot on Prost’s part, but his actions did, in the end, have a compromising effect on Senna’s race, even long after Prost had dropped out.

Sitting in our armchairs analyzing this it seems very logical, but to think something like this through in the midst of a race at 180 m.p.h. speaks of a level of genius equal to that which Senna was so much more readily appreciated for. It is a different, more subtle kind of genius in Prost’s case. Those who fail to appreciate Prost as a "racer" are missing the degree to which racing is chess, and not merely an athletic exercise.

by **crl** Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:39 pm

Milan655 wrote:
Cynon wrote:
Milan655 wrote:
Toblerone wrote:F1 is certainly different than the late 80s, early 90s, you never know how he would do.

It doesnt matter. The disrespect he shows from that comment is incredible. Ayrton Senna is THE best driver. Piquet Jr is a wash up that even struggles in 2nd and 3rd tier NASCAR.

Prost was better than Senna.

Clark was better than both.

Foyt and Mario Andretti were better than Clark.

End.

Prost was never better than Senna. Prost would be a 3 time world champion had he not had the help of Balestre in 1989, and won in 1993 as he had a much more advanced car than anyone in the field.

I won't argue your point on Clark because he definitely is a legend. However I will say Foyt and Andretti were not better than Clark, Senna or Prost. Andretti was a good driver, but not enough to be better than the previously mentioned three. Foyt was solely a CART driver, so it wouldn't be possible to make a comparison. Clark, Senna and Prost are generally conceived by most as the greatest drivers. In fact, Autosport held a poll among Formula 1 drivers to discover the greatest Formula 1 drivers. Senna was 1st, Prost 4th and Clark 5th.

Wrong again.

Foyt raced in NASCAR, as well, and won a Daytona 500.

by Mother of Invention Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:52 pm

Foyt is one of a handful of drivers that have won 3 of the big 4 races (Monaco, Indy, Le Mans, Daytona)

by RetrogradeRenegade Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:12 pm

crl wrote:
Milan655 wrote:
Cynon wrote:
Milan655 wrote:
Toblerone wrote:F1 is certainly different than the late 80s, early 90s, you never know how he would do.

It doesnt matter. The disrespect he shows from that comment is incredible. Ayrton Senna is THE best driver. Piquet Jr is a wash up that even struggles in 2nd and 3rd tier NASCAR.

Prost was better than Senna.

Clark was better than both.

Foyt and Mario Andretti were better than Clark.

End.

Prost was never better than Senna. Prost would be a 3 time world champion had he not had the help of Balestre in 1989, and won in 1993 as he had a much more advanced car than anyone in the field.

I won't argue your point on Clark because he definitely is a legend. However I will say Foyt and Andretti were not better than Clark, Senna or Prost. Andretti was a good driver, but not enough to be better than the previously mentioned three. Foyt was solely a CART driver, so it wouldn't be possible to make a comparison. Clark, Senna and Prost are generally conceived by most as the greatest drivers. In fact, Autosport held a poll among Formula 1 drivers to discover the greatest Formula 1 drivers. Senna was 1st, Prost 4th and Clark 5th.

Wrong again.

Foyt raced in NASCAR, as well, and won a Daytona 500.

Also, as a result of taking part in at least one Indy 500 between 1950 and 1960, he also technically raced in F1.

by **crl** Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:17 pm

RetrogradeRenegade wrote:
crl wrote:
Milan655 wrote:
Cynon wrote:
Milan655 wrote:
Toblerone wrote:F1 is certainly different than the late 80s, early 90s, you never know how he would do.

It doesnt matter. The disrespect he shows from that comment is incredible. Ayrton Senna is THE best driver. Piquet Jr is a wash up that even struggles in 2nd and 3rd tier NASCAR.

Prost was better than Senna.

Clark was better than both.

Foyt and Mario Andretti were better than Clark.

End.

Prost was never better than Senna. Prost would be a 3 time world champion had he not had the help of Balestre in 1989, and won in 1993 as he had a much more advanced car than anyone in the field.

I won't argue your point on Clark because he definitely is a legend. However I will say Foyt and Andretti were not better than Clark, Senna or Prost. Andretti was a good driver, but not enough to be better than the previously mentioned three. Foyt was solely a CART driver, so it wouldn't be possible to make a comparison. Clark, Senna and Prost are generally conceived by most as the greatest drivers. In fact, Autosport held a poll among Formula 1 drivers to discover the greatest Formula 1 drivers. Senna was 1st, Prost 4th and Clark 5th.

Wrong again.

Foyt raced in NASCAR, as well, and won a Daytona 500.

Also, as a result of taking part in at least one Indy 500 between 1950 and 1960, he also technically raced in F1.

He ran the last three Indy 500s that counted for World Championship points.

by tommykl Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:20 am

To me Piquet Jr. was nothing special in Formula One. He was mediocre, but who wasn't compared to Alonso, apart from Hamilton? He scored points a handful of times (although his podium was a complete fluke) on merit, but he wasn't really quick. I'll always think of him as an average-at-best driver.

Best of all time? I've already said Fangio...

by RetrogradeRenegade Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:04 am

The thing is, Piquet Jr looked fairly sharp in GP2, he gave Hamilton a fair run for his money. I guess it's just the standard tale of talent in lower formulae not always translating to the top level.

by Milan655 Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:41 am

crl wrote:
RetrogradeRenegade wrote:
crl wrote:
Milan655 wrote:
Cynon wrote:
Milan655 wrote:
Toblerone wrote:F1 is certainly different than the late 80s, early 90s, you never know how he would do.

It doesnt matter. The disrespect he shows from that comment is incredible. Ayrton Senna is THE best driver. Piquet Jr is a wash up that even struggles in 2nd and 3rd tier NASCAR.

Prost was better than Senna.

Clark was better than both.

Foyt and Mario Andretti were better than Clark.

End.

Prost was never better than Senna. Prost would be a 3 time world champion had he not had the help of Balestre in 1989, and won in 1993 as he had a much more advanced car than anyone in the field.

I won't argue your point on Clark because he definitely is a legend. However I will say Foyt and Andretti were not better than Clark, Senna or Prost. Andretti was a good driver, but not enough to be better than the previously mentioned three. Foyt was solely a CART driver, so it wouldn't be possible to make a comparison. Clark, Senna and Prost are generally conceived by most as the greatest drivers. In fact, Autosport held a poll among Formula 1 drivers to discover the greatest Formula 1 drivers. Senna was 1st, Prost 4th and Clark 5th.

Wrong again.

Foyt raced in NASCAR, as well, and won a Daytona 500.

Also, as a result of taking part in at least one Indy 500 between 1950 and 1960, he also technically raced in F1.

He ran the last three Indy 500s that counted for World Championship points.

The fact the Indy 500 was included in the World Championship was stupid (in my opinion). Not one driver entered from Formula 1, so it ended up with 30 USAC drivers instead. Foyt was not famed as a NASCAR driver, but a CART driver which is why I say "solely a CART driver".

by f1fan12 Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:24 am

Piquet Jr. had alot of hype, when he was in F1. He was said to be the next Brazillian superstar in Formula 1. However he commited F1 suicide when he walked into Renault, which was 100% devoted to an-unnammed Spainard.

-To be honest, I never thought Mario Andretti was all of what I have seen. From how I see it, he was fantastic in Indycar and won the Daytona 500. However in Formula 1, he was on par, if not below par with the other major championship contenders of the time. The only reason why he won an F1 championship was because the Lotus he was driving could beat everything else. Same reason I have a hard time picturing Jenson Button as a World Champion. So I would put Senna higher than Andretti.

-Foyt is an unfair comparison, because Senna never drove on ovals.

-Clark was better than Senna

-Prost is an intresting one, because Senna and Prost's racing styles were totally different. They both seemed equal with each other.

-So I feel Jim Clark was better than all of them.

by **Cynon** Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:33 am

Milan655 wrote:The fact the Indy 500 was included in the World Championship was stupid (in my opinion). Not one driver entered from Formula 1, so it ended up with 30 USAC drivers instead. Foyt was not famed as a NASCAR driver, but a CART driver which is why I say "solely a CART driver".

Not many F1 drivers have had the balls to run at Indy.

Foyt's record of 67 IndyCar wins has yet to be threatened (Mario Andretti is 2nd with 52). His last win in an IndyCar came before CART was formed, just to put that in perspective. He was also known to be very good in stock cars -- look up his USAC stock car results. He also won this little thing in France called Le Mans and kicked Ferrari's ass. Cool

Mario Andretti won 4 IndyCar championships (3 in the USAC era, 1 CART title) and was still competitive in top-level single seaters into his 50s. Only driver to win at Indy, the F1 title, and at Daytona. Also is the only driver to win in top-level single seater racing in 4 different decades.

by tommykl Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:20 am

How about Graham Hill? Two-time F1 champion, winner at Le Mans and at Indy, the only driver to do all three?

by Metro 6r4 Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:08 am

tommykl wrote:How about Graham Hill? Two-time F1 champion, winner at Le Mans and at Indy, the only driver to do all three?

And Niki Lauda who suffered extreme injuries and came fighting back, then he retired and came back to win again!

by tommykl Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:17 am

The thing is, most successful and most popular does not mean best. Which is why I still rank Fangio and Clark one step above the rest. Hill may have had more success than Clark is other series, but Clark always seemed to have rotten luck regarding reliability.

For Fangio, it's not his success that makes me think he was the best, but rather the fact that in basically every situation, he could still be in a position to win, and he usually did, despite switching teams about every year, and being successful in every one of them.

by navycook75 Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:44 am

tommykl wrote:How about Graham Hill? Two-time F1 champion, winner at Le Mans and at Indy, the only driver to do all three?

yes, he is the only driver to win Monaco, Le Mans, Indy, and win an F1 Championship.

by RetrogradeRenegade Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:48 pm

tommykl wrote:The thing is, most successful and most popular does not mean best. Which is why I still rank Fangio and Clark one step above the rest. Hill may have had more success than Clark is other series, but Clark always seemed to have rotten luck regarding reliability.

That's really a byproduct of racing for Lotus. Colin Chapman never cared really for reliability - his focus was always on making the car faster. Plus the Climax engines they ran in the early-mid 60s also had a habit of failing at the absolute worst time - in both 1962 and 1964 Clark was leading in the very last race, which would've won him the title in both years, only for his engine to die. In 1964, it happened on the very last lap. Had those engines held together, he'dve won 4 straight world championships.

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